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American Mastiff and Old English Mastiff
 
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mastiffdad
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:42 pm   Post subject:  American Mastiff and Old English Mastiff Back to top 

About 20 years ago the OEM was crossed to the Anatolian Sheepdog (which is a large livestock guardian breed) to create the American mastiff which apparently has a dry mouth, less health issues and lives longer.
I've never seen an American Mastiff in Australia but going by the pictures they look very similar to the OEM but with smaller heads.

How common are they?
Do you have any firsthand experience with them?
How is the temperament different from the OEM?


ANATOLIAN SHEEPDOG


AMERICAN MASTIFF

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weebit29
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:40 am   Post subject:   Back to top 

Our Parent club voted and Mastiff is the term for our breed NOT OEM Smile
I have never met any of the American's first hand, a few people on this forum (although I haven't seen many of them lately) and a few other forums have had them and they seemed ok to me from what little I know.
I have heard lots of stuff, that they are a bad breed, that they don't take the dogs back, that the contracts are unfair, but I don't have personal knowledge of any of it so I try to not condemn anyone, after all if there are problems... it isn't the pet owners fault really, and if there are not problems, then gossip doesn't need to be spread. I know they can be slightly controversial with some.
My problems with the breed are "false advertising" it seems they are or at least were advertised as healthier than our Mastiffs, which if the breeders that were making the claims had done any health testing and had some basis in fact I wouldn't have a problem with... but last time I checked, there was not enough information out there to make that claim honestly. Sure they could lie about it, but I can lie and say my dogs are all healthy too (they are for the most part, but they haven't had any of the health testing either). The dry mouth claim could be argued as false too from the few owners I have spoken too.
My second problem is that if an American does something bad, (like a Neo, a Cane Corso or any other large dog) then it is automatically labeled as a mastiff and gives our breed a bad name. But my problem there is more with the press doing bad reporting and not getting their breeds straight rather than breeders or owners Wink.
Missy

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MoMastiff
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:29 am   Post subject:  Re: American Mastiff and Old English Mastiff Back to top 

This topic has been beat to death on some of the other Mastiff Forums, so I won't try to cover everything again. But here are some highlights.

1. The American mastiff is not a new breed of dog, it just a mixed breed (mutt) like all the other designer breeds out there. It's marketed as a new breed and is registered with the CKC as such, but you can't develop a new breed in 20 years. It takes many, many , many generations of selective breeding for the gene pool to stabilize to create a new breed. The fact that the AM is listed as a breed with the CKC means nothing. The CKC will register anything that barks.

2. There is no documented proof or published studies that prove the AM is dryer mouthed, healthier, or longer lived than the Mastiff. The so called breed has only been around for 20+ years. It's not possible to determine traits, heath and longevity in such a short time. It takes many decades or longer to establish a baseline. Plus the developer of the AM, Fredericka Wagner of Flying W Farms, won't or CAN'T provide any documentation on the testing done of the foundation dogs used to develop the AM. So, where's the proof for the above claims? Bottom line, there isn't any.

3. Temperament is the biggest issue with the AM. The fact that AM was created by crossing the Anatolian Shepherd with a Mastiff is concern enough. The Anatolian has a much more aggressive temperament than a Mastiff. They are a working dog designed to work alone and make decisions for themselves to protect the flock. This protective nature can make them aggressive and likewise they are not necessarily a good candidate for a family dog. Mixing them with a Mastiff and putting them in a family environment is a recipe for disaster.

Bottom line, the AM is the result of clever marketing spouting unsubstantiated claims. At the end of the day, it’s just another high priced designer mutt preying on unknowing buyers. Unfortunately, the Mastiff community has to bear the brunt of the problems associated with the AM. If an AM acts out and bites someone, the headline reads “Mastiff”, not “American Mastiff”.

More info on the American Mastiff
http://mastiffmessageboard.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2308582

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SadieLady
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:35 am   Post subject:  Re: American Mastiff and Old English Mastiff Back to top 

As someone who has had Anatolians before, I cannot imagine why they would mix them with a sweet-tempered dog like a mastiff. American Mastiff breeders argue that you get the "best of both worlds" with the mastiff's sweet temperament, the anatolian's sharp intelligence, the mastiff's size, and the anatolian's dry mouth, but the truth is, there's just no way to guarantee something like that, and I can't imagine having a dog the size of a mastiff with the temperament of an Anatolian! I love my mom's Anatolian, don't get me wrong, but they're VERY smart, very independent, challenging to train, extremely suspicious of strangers, and high energy - great traits for a sheep guardian, not so much for a family dog. My mom can't take her dog anywhere because she's so dog-aggressive (not to mention she has NO manners to speak of because my mom has basically given up trying to train her).

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mastiffdad
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:21 pm   Post subject:  Re: American Mastiff and Old English Mastiff Back to top 

I couldn’t agree more with your comments regarding the temperament of the Anatolian Sheepdog. It is a true working dog not suited for family live so I was curious if some of those traits had been passed to the American Mastiff.
There is no debate about that topic here as there are no American Mastiffs so I didn't want to jump to conclusions.
You all seem to have a similar opinion about the AM which is in line with what I suspected.

How common are they?

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shamara
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:03 am   Post subject:   Back to top 

I have seen photos of some of the American Mastiffs. Honestly, I could not tell the difference (pysically) between one of those and a Mastiff.

How can one tell, other than pedigree? I am looking at that picture you posted and if I saw that photo in a rescue list, I would have just thought that dog was a Mastiff.

I am familiar with Anatolians because a co-worker raises them. They are ALOT of work! Way too much energy for me and wrong temperment for the layed back lifestyle in our family. It just surprises me that anyone would want to mix the two breeds. I cant see the benefit of it really.

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PostYou have posted in this forum: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:49 am   Post subject:   Back to top 

past thread that includes links to other information http://www.mastiffonlinecommunity.net/viewtopic.php?t=14522

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big dog mama
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:07 am   Post subject:   Back to top 

shamara wrote (View Post): ›
I have seen photos of some of the American Mastiffs. Honestly, I could not tell the difference (pysically) between one of those and a Mastiff.

How can one tell, other than pedigree? I am looking at that picture you posted and if I saw that photo in a rescue list, I would have just thought that dog was a Mastiff.

I am familiar with Anatolians because a co-worker raises them. They are ALOT of work! Way too much energy for me and wrong temperment for the layed back lifestyle in our family. It just surprises me that anyone would want to mix the two breeds. I cant see the benefit of it really.
I too would of thought that picture was a mastiff.

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Aescleah
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:33 pm   Post subject:   Back to top 

i can not agree more with the above post i hav nothing more to add cause its all been said before

Ashley

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PostYou have posted in this forum: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:01 pm   Post subject:   Back to top 

I think AM are very fined boned and not what I would think of a Mastiff that fits the standard.

The biggest problem I have with AM is not the dog..there is a few on this and other boards that are lovely smart dogs!

Its the lack of responsibility in the people breeding them. They claim no drool..thats BS. And they dont do ANY health testing whatsoever. If they want respect...they need to do things right. The breed has no purpose but making someone a $ by marketing them as being different than a Mastiff.

FYI...I dont want to sound harsh against anyone that has one. Like I said...I dont have a problem with the dog..its the people breeding them with no accountability. A well known "breeder" of these dogs has had quite a few show up in rescue and shelters. No concern after they are paid. THAT stinks!

Also some temperament isses have been stated too. But that also happens typically with less than stellar bred mastiffs..or ones that lacked socializing etc.

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PostYou have posted in this forum: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:16 am   Post subject:   Back to top 

we have an A.M. in our neighborhood that is 8mos. old and growing fast! she's a fawn and from the looks of her, resembles more english than american. now niko will have someone to hang that is more his size.

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ladog
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:24 am   Post subject:   Back to top 

From my knowledge of the AM the temperment is very different from dog to dog.

We had three that came into our clinic one the female was aloof but overall very sweet one of the males was goofy and and a big oaf he was more mastiff like but the last male was a handfull. He was difficult to work with and untrustworthy. He was like the AS he wasnt interested in people and his prey drive was over the top.

When the female whelped a litter her personality changed. She bacame very agressive and even after the puppies where weaned and removed she was never the same.

The puppies that stayed in the area may have looked like mastiffs but the personality was all AS. Both of them were very rough and untrustworthy one male and one female. Both were involved in bite cases before they were a year old.

As I read in an earlier post "A breed cant be devolped in a few short years and should be left up to the experts" this means real experts not some byb that wants to earn a quick buck in the designer breed market

Thanks for letting me vent

Leah

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Michelle
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:53 pm   Post subject:  Re: American Mastiff and Old English Mastiff Back to top 

In addition to my EM girl, I own two American Mastiffs. My 5-1/2-year-old boy is a Certified Therapy Dog through Therapy Dogs International, Inc.

There are 10 AMBC-Approved (American Mastiff Breeders Council) breeders in the U.S. and Canada (none of which are in Iowa). As I own and operate an American Mastiff website and forum, I know each of the breeders very well. All of the breeders will take any proven American Mastiff back, no matter the reason, throughout the lifetime of the dog. I've personally been involved in a few and in several re-homings.

No breed comes "ready made" wonderful. All dogs, no matter the breed, need proper socialization and training to help them become a wonderful family member and companion. The American Mastiff is no exception.

My intention for posting is to help clear up some of the many misconceptions about the AM. I respectfully state that I'm not interested in a debate of any kind. Not every breed is for everyone.

Michelle

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*AM Murphy, Flying W Farms (Born 1-23-05) CGC, Certified Therapy Dog, Therapy Dogs International, Inc.
*Chihuahua mix, Daisy (Born 2003 ?) ~ adopted 11-2009

*Epileptic German Shepherd mix, Annie (Born 10-4-04) ~ adopted 5-06 ~ RIP 5-17-08
*EM Frankie (Born 11-11-01) ~ adopted 10-07 GLMR ~ RIP 10-27-09
*Epileptic AM, Brody, Orion Farms (Born 9-11-09) ~ adopted 4-2-10 ~ RIP 6-15-2013
*EM Maggie (Born 10-17-05) ~ adopted 12-06 GLMR ~ RIP 12-1-2013
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PostYou have posted in this forum: Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:41 am   Post subject:  Re: American Mastiff and Old English Mastiff Back to top 

Michelle wrote (View Post): › In addition to my EM girl, I own two American Mastiffs. My 5-1/2-year-old boy is a Certified Therapy Dog through Therapy Dogs International, Inc.

There are 10 AMBC-Approved (American Mastiff Breeders Council) breeders in the U.S. and Canada (none of which are in Iowa). As I own and operate an American Mastiff website and forum, I know each of the breeders very well. All of the breeders will take any proven American Mastiff back, no matter the reason, throughout the lifetime of the dog. I've personally been involved in a few and in several re-homings.

No breed comes "ready made" wonderful. All dogs, no matter the breed, need proper socialization and training to help them become a wonderful family member and companion. The American Mastiff is no exception.

My intention for posting is to help clear up some of the many misconceptions about the AM. I respectfully state that I'm not interested in a debate of any kind. Not every breed is for everyone.

Michelle


Thanks for posting and is great to hear from an AM owner.
There are always two sides to a coin
Based on your experience with AM and EM what would you say are the main differences between the two breeds?
I'm not interested in creating a debate either. I started this tread to find out what EM owners think of AMs. I’m not bias as I have never seen an AM.

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PostYou have posted in this forum: Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:35 pm   Post subject:   Back to top 

I also dont wish to cause a debate.

I only wanted to express that no two dogs are the same and that breeding should be left to experts. I saw the same thing happen when wolf hybrids started showing up.. NOT comparing the temperment of a hybrid to an AM

I have seen many people bred for the money and not be concerned about the quailty of life the poor dog gets.

I totally agree that a dogs temperment is how thay are raised My sons Pit is one of the best therapy dogs I have ever seen and we all know the bad rep they have.

Please accept by apology if I offended you and AMs in general that was not my intent

Leah

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