Ok everyone, I am very new to mastiffs and BO (now 5 1/2 months old) is only the 3rd dog I have ever had. So with him getting so big, I need to make sure I have him in obedience class. Well tonight was my first class. I have 3 small children at home (ages 8 1/2 and twins 6 1/2). Bo does not bother the 8 year old but he will run and bum rush the twins, usually jumping on them as they are outside playing, wrapping his front legs around them and knocking them down to the ground. Well so tonight, when i questioned the young teacher of the class about what to do when this happened, she told me to catch Bo doing it, roll him over on his back and hold him there until he calmed down. SO I did that having my son (the victim ) help me out and hold him. Well Bo was not happy. He even grumbled at me. Well tonight I kept trying to get him to do the look command, but when I would put a treat out for him to hold over his nose to sit, he would run off. Now this has been going on for a few days, so not sure if he is "dissing" me or if he is just mad about tonight? Well he usually sits by me on the couch (probably another no no) but tonight he would not come near me. Even when my husband had a piece of caramel corn, he would go to my husband and not me. Even when I had the same treat. So does this sound like he is dissing me and disrespecting me or is he just mad? What do I need to do? Then tonight Bo always barks when he wants to go to bed. So i turn on a small light and go in and pet him for a few seconds while (yes ) he sleeps on our bed. Well tonight, he just walked past me and went to bed with not a sound. Have I lost my friend? I feel really bad because I am going back to work on the 9th part time so I will have to put him back in the crate while I am gone for 4 hours each day. Any ideas or suggestions?

It sounds to me like you lost his trust (the roll was really bad advice IMO) however I doubt it is permanent, dogs are really forgiving of our mistakes
I'd find a new trainer if at all possible
V recommends a book, Living with kids and dogs without losing your mind.. I can't recall the author but do a search and it should turn up.
And for him going after the kids you might try Rev Up Cool Down http://www.mastiffonlinecommunity.net/viewtopic.php?t=84
Doggie Zen is great about teaching them some self control
http://www.mastiffonlinecommunity.net/viewtopic.php?t=81
Missy

I agree to look for a new trainer. The alpha roll is a technique that I no longer agree with. I agree though, they are very forgiving of our mistakes!

Check out the links that Missy posted!

Thank you for your info. Bo seemed much better this morning. Actually crawling up on the couch bside me and placing his head on my lap as to say all is forgiven. However he still runs when I try and get him to watch with a treat .I have never seen a dog run or walk away when you hold a treat out for them. I am really concerned about this behaviour.

I agree – he has lost his trust in you for doing the alpha roll. That was the worst advice a trainer could give for a puppy – especially a mastiff puppy! Get a new trainer that trains without punishing and will use treats.

It will take a while for him to forgive (probably never forget) Mastiffs are like elephants, they never forget! My opinion it sounds like he is now associating treats with punishment.

Does he get excited when the kids are around? If not too excited maybe having your 8 yr old try small commands like sit and give a treat and lots of praise?

get away from that trainer!!!!! NEVER EVER EVER ALPHA ROLL A DOG omg. what a foolish, foolish trainer.

set your expectation levels appropriately. a 5.5 month old puppy with no 'off' switch (and he doesn't have one because you haven't taught him one yet) is going to chase and bum rush small children because it's what puppies do.

i am exhausted and going to bed, will post all the "alpha roll" is bad stuff tomorrow.

How is Bo today? First let me explain to you about everyone on this site. We really, REALLY L-O-V-E “our” mastiffs. And since you joined here your “Baby” is now adopted by “us”. We get very passionate about BAD trainers – especially ones that tell you to do the alpa roll, jerk the lead when they aren’t paying attention to our commands and tell you to be the “pack leader” over your pack.

We are NOT yelling at you!!

We understand that you came here for intelligent information for your baby. I know how hard it is to be a first time mastiff parent and it is hard. We feel sorry that you and Bo got mixed up with a bad trainer. This is NOT your fault!!

When I first got my Angel Love and would ask a question – I really felt that everyone was “yelling” at me for being so stupid. I would get my “feelings” hurt because I just knew I WAS a bad parent.

This was not the case. It took me a while to understand how passionate everyone was and how much they really wanted to help me in training Angel to be the best Baby possible.

So no one is accusing you of being a bad parent with Bo but want to help you as they helped ME with Angel.

A mastiff wants to learn as much as you want them to pay attention and will do anything to get your “love” . But using negative training on such a young puppy will only cause you trouble in the future.

Think of your puppy as being the same age as a 2 yr old 2-legged child. Bo might be larger than most puppies but he is still a little baby. Would you potty train that child by tying them to a potty chair and forcing them to sit there until they realize this is where they have to “go. Of course NOT! You train with love and understanding the same way you need to do with Bo.

Now back to Bo. Yes, Bo is scared of you right now – but it’s not YOUR fault!! Forget all the training for right now.

Take Bo in a smaller room without all the noise, kids, activities that might distract Bo from you. I know this will be hard to find one-on-one time with just Bo with your active family but both you and Bo need this.

Sit on the floor and read a book. Have a lot of treats that he used to like handy. Let Bo come to you – ignore him until he makes the move to interact with you. Give him a treat and tell him good boy then go back to reading. If he decides to stay next to you – keep giving treats, petting him, telling him what a good boy he is. Help him understand that you and treats will not be a “bad” thing.

Start over by teaching him to sit and then give him a treat, good boy praise, and love. Just work on the sitting. Only have Bo out with the kids when they aren’t running around crazy and want to help you in training Bo.

Your kids are old enough to help in training Bo. They can carry around small treats in their pockets. Have them walk around the yard and when they notice Bo coming to them have them stop and tell Bo to sit. When he sits for them – have them give him a treat, love on him and tell him Good Boy!

Mastiffs are very smart and he will soon learn if he sits for the kids he gets love and treats.

NOW when can we see some pictures of “OUR” Baby Boy??

hi,

deep breath. bo is scared but he'll come around

almost always when dogs roll another dog it's because they want to kill the other dog, so that's probably what bo thought was going to happen. the growl? well heck, i'd growl or worse at you too if i was really scared something really bad was going to happen to me. or i was just tired, don't mess with me when i'm tired, i'm the worst witch lol!

the monk who put the alpha roll in the monks of new skete book wishes he hadn't.

from: http://www.australian-shepherd-lovers.com/alpha-dog-training.html

"The technique was referred to as the "alpha-wolf rollover" originally by the Monks. In the new addition, the following comments are made about the technique:

"We no longer recommend this technique and strongly discourage its use to our clients... It is potentially very dangerous and can set up the owner for a serious bite in the face (or worse), particularly with a dominant dog. The conditions in which it might be used effectively are simply too risky and demanding for the average dog owner; there are other ways of dealing with problem behavior that are much safer and, in the long run, just as effective." (emphasis mine).

the trainer is wrong, wrong, wrong. very wrong and has been misled by people that should be giving her good information. and just in case, dogs don't carry puppies around by the scruff of their necks, cats do that with kittens. dogs lay the puppy across their tongue with the head hanging out one side and the tail out the other side. so the whole "scruff shake" thing is also wrong. and...think about it...all those "never shake the baby" lectures about human babies? why is it that some people think it's ok to shake a puppy? so if your trainer says 'scruff shake'....ask the trainer if she'd shake a baby.


now, back to bo. get something really, really scrumptious. walk past bo, don't look at him and gently underhand (bowl) the treat towards him and keep going. repeat a million times. after a while bo will start to learn: whoopee!!!! here comes the person! wow! really good things are going to happen!

when bo looks happy to see you coming, then bowl the treat and stop for a second or two, then keep going. do this for about 5 minutes, no longer.

give bo at least a 5 minute break, then do it again. start stopping for longer and longer. if bo approaches you...WOW!!!! toss him about 5 treats, one at a time, hand feed him if he'll tolerate it. if not, slowly reach out and drop the treat and then withdraw your arm. now he's going to start to learn: i move towards the person, really, really good stuff happens.

go slowly, watch bo - do you know his stress signals? probably his ears will go back and that's a good sign that he's not comfortable. or he might do a quick lip flick or turn his head. if he's doing that, don't stop, keep going. be patient. wait for those signals to stop. then you can stop for a second and gradually build it up until he's running to get to you and all the good stuff that you have

v

hi again,

and i'd bet someone said "mastiffs are really good with children." oops.

some are, some aren't, but any puppy without an "off" switch (which bo hasn't learned yet), is going to chase and jump on kids who are running around because children are absolutely perfect toys! a puppy couldn't ask for anything better than a running child...

so manage the situation. if your children are outside playing, bo needs to be somewhere else. if bo is outside playing, your children need to be somewhere else.

until everyone, bo and your children, has learned an off switch. then bo should be taught, in baby steps, that doing something else, like going to his mat (i am becoming a go to your mat addict), is a much better deal for him than chasing children.

i have a foster here who chases everything. the horses, the cats, the chickens, and would chase the cows if he could get into the pasture. i'm working with him and yesterday we were 15' from the ring while the trainer drove one of the horses, in a trot (i.e. moving faster than a walk and fast enough to be tempting), around the ring. there was one lunge, my fault because we moved too close. when we started i had to be about 80' away from the ring while the horse walked. slow steps but good progress

he can walk 2' away from the chickens now if they are walking, running chickens he needs to be about 10' away from, but again, we started about 80' away while he frantically lunged.

it can all be done. it just needs to be done in small steps with heavy duty positive feedback when the dog makes the right choice and lots of patience.

sometimes you have to wait them out while they lunge, just hold your ground and keep your hands up against your body so you're not pulling them back - that's how they train attack dogs, by pulling them back - so you don't want to do that!

v

Hi there! I hope everything works out well gaining Bo's trust back. I'm sure it will though. The issue was created by Bo jumping up on the kids though, right? I just wanted to share how I managed to teach my mastiff not to jump up on kiddos.

When I first got her, I didn't have any kids, and so the be a tree method worked just fine for the adults that came over. I adapted that when I started dating a man with a child. (now my husband) Ayla had figured out not to jump on tall people, but the shorter they were, the more she jumped. I started with a friend of mine who was short, and had her go through the be a tree exercise. Then I did it while holding my little girl, only turning to avoid claws coming in contact with her. Then I had my short friend do the same. By the end, she had stopped jumping. Never did get her to stop licking a face that was that close to her though =-)

By the way, the "Be a Tree" is a sticky on the training forum. Another one of V's gems!

hi,

not my gem lol! i steal everything(grin). it's a common training practice.

and thanks for reminding me, not only is pelar's book (living with kids and dogs) something i think is essential, but there's also www.doggonesafe.com which is a great site for information about keeping kids safe!

v

thank you all for the wonderful advice. I have already paid my $100 for the training sessions so I will have to continue with them. However Bo is still very affectionate with me. However he does not come when I call him. He chooses when he wants to see me. Which I have to work on. He is very funny. Today he actually acted like he got jealous. My 6 year old daughter was leaning up against me on the couch. Well Bo decided he wanted to sit by me too so he climbed up and practically moved Evie over by sitting on her in between us. Then he laid his head on my lap. LOL Last night he would look at me once or twice and then give me this low growl/talk sound. Almost like a teenager back talking me. LOL Then he would walk off and play. Not sure what that was about. Maybe he was telling me that he was still upset with me. LOL

I AM Bo's caregiver. Period. I feed him, I take him to the vet, I try and walk him, I tuck him in at night (literally, I know crazy huh). I play with him. I try and train him. He is MY baby. So it hurts my heart to think I did anything to upset him. He is THE best dog. This trainer is only like 22 or so. She said she has been training dogs and horses for like 7 years. Anyway one of the things that she told me that I have a question about also is that she told me to always make sure that I eat before Bo. Period. Even if I just ACT like I am sitting down to eat, make sure I show him I get fed first. Like the whole alpha dog thing. Bo is usally the first one fed just because I get up at 5:30, come in to the living room open the door to let him out and while he is out doing his business, I make his food up and give him fresh water in the kitchen. WHen he comes in he eats. Then at lunch, I fix his food, put it out and then I feed the kids and then myself. Same at dinner. So is it bad to feed him first? Should I do as trainer says and always show him we eat first/ I am so happy to have all of you give me advice. I almost felt a bit funny when we were talking to the trainer because she NEVEr said she had an english mastiff. She said her parents raised danes, but she almost seemed to be a bit uncomfortable even having a mastiff there. Not sure why. There was a doberman there, and all Bo wanted to do was play with that dog. I will post pics soon. He is growing so fast.

she told me to always make sure that I eat before Bo. Period.

hi,

i'll send you $100. i'm serious. go find another trainer, send me your mailing address and i'll send you a check.

i don't care how long she's been training, that is an enormous crock of bovine fecal material.

think about it logically. we know (really, we know, it's proven) that dogs don't remember what they did 5 seconds ago.

so how the heck is a dog going to rememeber who ate when? how is a dog going to possibly connect you eating food he's not eating with who's in charge? maybe by some miracle einstein the dog will make the connection, but not my dog and not your dog.

if you think i'm a little eccentric, call wolf park in indiana. they scientifically observe wolves interacting every day. ask them who eats first.

the FACT is that rank/status is based on resources and when resources are plentiful, as food is in wolf park because they are given plenty of food, and hopefully in your home where you're not starving bo (and i'm sure you're not), it is often....the hungriest wolf who eats first, regardless of rank/status.

a canadian scientist spent years observing captive wolves and described one wolf, i'll call him oscar. almost all year long, oscar was everyone's favorite uncle. oscar was genial, he let the pups climb all over him, he didn't argue with anyone. then breeding season came and he turned into cujo. why? because breeding resources are not available to every wolf all the time, there is serious competition for breeding rights and when resources are scarce, that's when rank/status becomes important.

even wolves, whose heirarchy is more rigid than dogs (dog and wolf packs have some very significant differences), aren't nearly as rigid as most people have been led to believe.

see my "time magazine" post in training. there's some good info in there about real pack behavior.

i also love "culture clash" by jean donaldson, although she's more sarcastic than i am and some people don't like it, and "the other end of the leash" by dr. patricia mcconnell. both of those books explain *real* dog behavior, not some mythical alpha nonsense. dogwise.com has both of them, or again, send me your mailing address and i'll lend you my copies.

i think everyone with a dog should read one or both. it would save hours of agony.

also - do you have dunbar's "before" and "after" puppy books?

v

How does the “trainer??” get you to have Bo sit? Does she have you pull up on the lead and push on the butt? Or does she have you move the treat up over his nose so he has to look up and automatically sit to see the treat?

When walking in a circle with the group what are you to do when Bo doesn’t pay attention to you? Are you supposed to ignore Bo and even step on Bo’s paws if you have to?

What about the “turn-around” if Bo doesn’t watch and follow you – do you pop the lead and half pull him to follow?

Listen to “V” because she is the BEST person around with the most experience with dogs and understands dogs – especially mastiffs. Some of her suggestion might sound weird (sorry “V”) but they work!!

I’m a novelist when it comes to training and “V” correct me if I am telling her wrong but I don’t “think” it is necessary for you to be the only one feeding, taking her out for potty, training, etc. I feel that the whole family should be included. What happens if you happen to be in another room and one of your kids see Bo doing something harmful to either himself or to someone else? Bo should listen to everyone giving a command.

When I first got Angel Love both my daughters were young – 6 & 8. The girl next door was 7 and pretty much lived at my house! I taught them how to train Angel and Angel would listen. It really helped when Angel went from being 45 lbs to 65 lbs in a matter of months.

As Angel grew – each of the girls were able to walk her around the yard on a lead. When they stopped she would stop.

There are 3 major problems I had with Angel that you will probably have with Bo as he starts to grow.

1. Running to the door when someone new comes. I made Angel get one of her stuffed toys and stand next to me before letting the person inside. Being that young it’s going to be hard to get him to sit. As he gets older you can then do the sit – stay.

Have the person sit before Bo can be greeted. Not only did this save the person from being slobbed (stuffed toy in the mouth) but a new person won’t be as scared looking at this Hugh dog with a stuffed toy hanging out of the mouth.

And he is not going to be jumping all over the person so he can get attention. Angel “thought” everyone who came to the house was there to see only her!

2. Play with the feet. Get Bo comfortable with you touching his feet and even pretend you are cutting the toe nails. Make it a game with lots of treats – no forcing to be still.

This is one I never thought of to work on until Angel was bigger and ALWAYS had problems getting her toe nails cut.

3. Water and Giving a bath! Angel loved playing in the sprinkler but never liked her bath. I had a hose hooked up to warm water from the house but it was horrible to give “us” a bath!

I never thought to get Angel her own swimming pool to play in – Darn!

I’m with “V” I will help pay you back the $100.00!!! It is not worth the damage that this so called “trainer??” can do in the short 6 weeks of training.

Danes are not like training a Mastiff! And if this person seems scared NOW of Bo what message will that send to Bo?? Not good!!

Good Luck and can’t wait to see pictures of “our” Baby!!
Linda

In my house, I eat breakfast first for one simple reason... I can't stomach the smell of dog food on an empty stomach Dinner is dogs first because it is convenient and usually they eat again after we eat because I share our dinner with them most nights.
But really really really I don't think it matters who eats first. It seems lots of trainers are still using outdated methods. I can remember one I spoke to who told me Maggie was reactive because I let her on the couch and the bed. However she wasn't reactive about the couch or the bed, she was reactive about strangers coming to the door or in the house. Luckily I had read most of what V suggests to everyone and knew it was BS
We live and we learn, and so will you Seriously, find a new trainer and chalk that 100.00 up as a learning experience (but I do understand, I don't have 100.00 to waste either... at the moment I don't have 20.00 to waste, I have to make every penny count lately) But it would be better to waste 100 than to ruin a perfectly good dog IMO.. and this trainers methods could lead to you having life long trouble with this dog.
Missy